Doomed To Extinction's release number 40 is a cassette by Symbol Of Freedom from Pontypridd, Wales. The band originally formed in 1981 under the name Drab Confusion, and went on to share releases and stage with bands such as Stalag 17, Oi Polloi, and Shrapnel. The cassette contains 11 tracks recorded in 1985 and 1986.

In 2017, after a lengthy conversation about punk and politics, the following interview was sent my way by Mike Clarke (Inflammable Material Records). This text is the original email Q&A interview Ian Glasper conducted with Chris Low (drummer with Part One, The Apostles, Oi Polloi, Political Asylum and fanzine publisher) for the 2006 Anarcho-Punk book, The Day The Country Died, reprinted for the first time in full with a couple of extra questions added to expound on themes and topics raised. Big thanks to Nick, Ian and Mike. - DTEHQ

1. When and why did you get into punk rock? What was it about the anarcho-punk genre in particular that you especially related to? Who would you cite as major influences on you both as a drummer/musician and an individual?

CL: I got into punk around 1978. I always used to hang out around with folk older than me, and back then pretty much everyone who was not a dullard was into punk. In Stirling, the house I grew up in overlooked the carpark of the local disco, and there were local punk bands who rehearsed there. We used to go and watch them. Our next door neighbor, Jamzy, was in a band called The Fakes, who released one amazing 7” called Production.  They were the first band I saw live, plus other local bands like The Vertical Smiles and FK9. The first “big gig” I ever went to was Sham 69 at Glasgow Apollo. This was just when The Sex Pistols had split up, and Steve Jones and Paul Cook joined them on stage for the encore of Pretty Vacant, White Riot etc. I was nine years old. The one thing I do distinctly remember from then was that, even at that age, I was aware of a disparity between the “image” of punk and a lot of the music, which to my ears didn't really sound as nasty and aggressive as I had expected. I remember being so disappointed when my mate nicked a copy of the first Clash LP from the local Woolworths, and we piled up around his house to listen to it. I think that was what was so revolutionary about hearing Crass's Feeding Of The 5000 for the first time. At last, it was a record that sounded like I had always imagined punk would and should sound. Strangely enough, I remember discussing this with Andy Martin of The Apostles one of the first times I met him. He said the same thing about seeing Throbbing Gristle at their first performance. He thought similarly, this was when punks were first appearing in the press so he thought Throbbing Gristle were how punk bands sounded. Not surprisingly perhaps, he then felt very disheartened when he attended his next 'punk gig' which the UK Subs. Though that would, of course, have been a few years before I first heard any punk bands. Actually, one band we did both love, musically and ideologically, was Alternative TV. I still consider them the best 'punk band' ever, and in their own way just as important as the Pistols were as they really gave punk it's DIY 'Anyone can learb three chords and form a band' ethos. Anyways, getting back to Crass. I will never forget the power and impact Feeding Of The 5000 had. Getting it home, putting it on our crap old record player, folding out the booklet that came with it, sitting down, listening, immersing myself in the stark monochrome graphics and following the lyrics. I must have been around 9 or 10 years old then. After getting to the end of side two, it was like a bomb had gone off in my prepubescent head.

It was shortly after that, 1980 I think, that Crass played the Stirling Albert Hall. All the punks I hung out with went along to the gig. I remember it being absolutely stunning and  so different from the other punk bands I'd gone to see before: The Clash, SLF etc., who you saw at big, seated venues where the bouncers would hassle you if you started jumping around. Not to mention the fact we wouldn't be able to get to see bands usually, as most venues were licensed and over 18’s only. However, this Crass gig was in a local hall, cost about 50p to enter (though I think we all blagged it), and was fucking brilliant. The fact they came across so intensely on stage conveyed an unbelievably powerful image and, yes, probably made a life-changing impression. Or rather, made an impression which would and I expect did impact on the course of my future life, as life wasn't even something I had any great experience of then, being still a young kid. As is illustrated by the fact only a few months before the Crass gig I had been taken on a primary school trip to see the Joseph and His Technicolour Dreamcoat at the same venue!

Musically, another record I remember getting around this time was Red Attack LP by The Rondos, which I also thought was immensely inspiring. In fact,  in strictly musical terms, it possibly meant even more than Feeding, as Crass's musicianship was shit-hot, whereas Rondos sounded not too dissimilar to what my older mates' bands sounded like with their cheap guitars and drums. When the first Bullshit Detector compilation came out, that just pushed that whole DIY envelope even further. In fact, I'd say that if anything sums up the whole ethos of punk, it is the first Bullshit Detector. Plus, around then there were lots of other great bands whose records I started buying, some of whom weren't strictly 'punk' per se: Six Minute War, Fallout, The Pop Group, Gang Of Four, DAF, Delta Five, Au Pairs, A Certain Ratio, Discharge. In fact, together with the mandatory Crass interview, most of those bands appeared in the first issue of a fanzine I did at that time called Guilty Of What?. Also, most of them are bands I still love and who still sound amazing to this day!

2. When did you start playing drums? What inspired you to want to start up a band in the first place?

CL: If there was anything that originally influenced me a couple of years later when I took up drumming, it would be that Rondos LP, the Crisis Holocaust 7”, or a live tape I was sent of another two brilliant early anarcho bands: The Sinyx  and The Eratics. Though, that could have something to do with the fact the first drum kit I got didn't even have any cymbals, so I just used to pound out a pretty primal 'Mo Tucker' type rhythm on the toms and snare and didn't have a clue how you even played the drums 'properly' - as is evident on the early Political Asylum songs I played on. With regards to my motivation, while I would imagine lots of folk say they formed a band to get a message across - and it cant be denied there WAS that belief at the time - essentially, it was really because it was a fun thing to do. One thing that strikes me now is just how young so many of the bands were then, and particularly in the anarcho-punk scene. I mean, I was eleven when I did my first fanzine, and twelve when we recorded the  Political Asylum 'Fresh Hate' demo. Now that might seem surprising, but back then it was nothing out of the ordinary. I suppose kids just made their own entertainment, and at that time that pretty much meant making music or playing football.

3. Did you traveling at a young age or involvement with anarcho-punk present any challenges with your relations with your parents? 

To be honest, I was blessed to have been adopted by the kindest, most loving, and most supportive parents I could have ever have wished for. I was an absolute terror when I was a kid, always in trouble and getting up to no good; police coming round, being suspended and finally expelled from school. I think my parents had reluctantly, though perhaps pragmatically, given up any attempt to control me. Perhaps displaying some remarkable astuteness and psychology they had concluded if I was at given some responsibility I would be more likely to exert some control over myself. Which I suppose I did, and a lot of that was undoubtedly the result of anarcho-punk. This brought me into contact with a vast and diverse social group, many considerably older than me, which in ways meant I was forced to become more mature and self-sufficient. However, one of the worst incidents that occurred when I was down in London recording a record with The Apostles, and went around to a squat with Dave of The Apostles. I think he was wanting to score blow from the Hells Angels who lived there. Unbeknownst to anyone, the squat was under surveillance from the police. As drugs were being dealt from it and some clearly under-age kid was entering, the police swooped in, and I was taken away. I was questioned about what I was doing there, where my parents were etc. As they were away in France and were untraceable the cops could only contact the headmaster of my school who, thankfully, informed them that I did indeed spend time by myself down in London, where I apparently drummed for a band. Needless to say this, caused my mum and dad some problems when they returned from holiday, but thankfully the cops released me as my only concern was not being able get to the studio in time to drum on the Apostles single I was down in London to record! 

4. How did you hook up with Ramsey and Political Asylum? What can you recall of the first Political Asylum show?

CL: Ramsey first contacted me through the fanzine I was doing. I think we'd seen each other around Stirling, at gigs etc. A mutual friend, James 'Spam' Buchanan, said we should hook up as Ramsey and a couple of his school friends had formed a band and were looking for a drummer. At the time, I was in one of those typical arse-about bands called Toxic Noise playing cover versions of punk classics but to cut a long story short, Ramsey and Stephen 'Cheesy' Brown, the guitarist, chucked out the original bassist they had, and joined forces with my mate Flack from Toxic Noise. At first we called ourselves Distraught, which I didn't really like as I thought it sounded too much like Discharge, and this was long before there were any 'Discore' bands. We played our first two gigs under that name. The first  gig was at Braco Town Hall, which I organized with a few mates from school. We came through with a mini bus of Stirling punks, so at least we had a crowd. As far as I can remember, we were pretty good and we got through our whole set, I think even playing a few songs twice! The second show was at Ramsey and Cheesy's school, which I remember being a real fiasco. We couldn't hear anything, and I think we were chucked off after the second song! Soon after this, a school mat

5. Likewise, what can you recall of the Political Asylum demo you played on? How do you regard that work now, with the benefit of the hindsight?

CL: Strangely enough, I hadn't listened to Fresh Hate for years until recently. My only regret was that by the time we went into the studio I'd only just got a kick drum pedal and was getting the hand of 'proper drumming' , but unfortunately Cheesy was insistent that “Winter Of Our Discontent” should have a straight 4/4 hi-hat beat instead of the customary bass drum/ tom bashing I'd played before. I had never tried playing anything like that before, which is why the drumming on “Winter of Our Discontent” sounds so atrociously out of time, and totally ruins the track. Apart from that, I think Fresh Hate still sounds brilliant. My favorite has to be “Autonomous Youth”. In fact, the lyrics I wrote were inspired from the discussions I'd been having with Miles and Nik of the original Napalm Death, who were then doing songs like “Punk Is A Rotting Corpse”, and coming out with stuff that was incredibly unpopular and iconoclastic at the time. Even so, it actually made a lot of sense to me. In fact, it's basically the same idea that Mark Perry had voiced on ATV's classic How Much Longer 7" five years earlier. By then punk had developed a very dogmatic and tribalist element, which I always thought was the anthesis of what it should be all about. Similarly, Oxford St. 48 and parts I wrote of Where Next demonstrate I was moving away from what was becoming a rather 'Crassifist' mentality. I suppose by this time I  was headed towards similar thinking of The Apostles, who I was in communication with by then.

6. Please tell us about the zine you were doing at the time... And also your political motivations, which seemed pretty intense for someone so young.

CL: I did 3 issues. I think it was around 1980-81, or 1982. It was pretty run of the mill anarcho-punk stuff, Crass, Poison Girls interviews, though at least I also had bands like Pere Ubu and Gang Of Four, local bands like The Fakes and China Pig. I also put out a compilation tape of local (Central Scotland) bands called Look To The Future, which there was some great stuff on and can be heard on the Kill Your Pet Puppy website. Yes, I did have some pretty strong views, but the early 80s were a very political time. It seemed like everyone was into CND, nuclear disarmament and anti-militarism, because the prospect of nuclear annihilation and conscription genuinely felt threatening. This was the period of the Cold War fallout. Likewise, the prospect of national service in the army when you left school had actually been suggested by some politicians as a way to curb the spiraling unemployment figures and also loomed large in the popular adolescent imagination. Whether it ever was a threat or simply a spin employed by the opposition is neither here nor there. It felt tangible and at that time people genuinely felt they could make a change through protesting, whether that was on marches or from a stage. Animal rights and the anti-Apartheid movements were becoming popular, too. That whole socio-political climate provided the ideological oxygen to the anarcho-punk scene. 

7. How did you come into contact with Andy Martin and The Apostles, and how was it to work with such a controversial band?

CL: I heard a tape of The Apostles (first demo) when I was staying with Miles of Napalm Death, and thought it was amazing. I wrote to Andy and got an enormous typed letter plus about half a dozen tapes back a few days later. We kept in touch and in Summer 1983, when I'd just turned fourteen, I went down to London and stayed with him in the squat he shared Ian Slaughter, who did the notorious Pigs For Slaughter zine. That fanzine was another immense influence both on myself and the development of the early anarcho-punk scene.  During my stay, Andy was recording a demo with The Assassins Of Hope, and I jammed with him in the studio. At that time The Apostles were using Razzle of Hanoi Rocks as a fill-in drummer but as I had recently parted company with Political Asylum he asked if I wanted to fill The Apostles drumming stool. So there I was; a 14 year old kid drumming for one of my favorite bands and squatting in Hackney with no running water  in a condemned building where you had to climb up the side of the building to get in as the door was barricaded up. The Apostles were unique at the time as there was not one single band who sounded anything like them musically. Neither Andy nor Dave listened to punk music, something that I didn't have a great deal of interest in by then myself and was more into electronic acts like Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and SP etc. As for their beliefs it's hard to understand but at that time there was this very hippyish, sixties throw-back Crass-clone mentality where everyone paid lip-service to these undefined ideals of “anarchy, peace and freedom” and were becoming increasingly like brain-washed Buddhists in black rags. The Apostles and Pigs For Slaughter fanzine were about THE ONLY voices in the whole anarcho-punk movement who voiced any opposition to all that and instead were into the Angry Brigade, Baader Meinhof and armed struggle: - "Releasing our comrades from Stannheim Towers/Isn't gonna happen with love and flowers”, haha.  Which is all terribly naive and unrealistic  to consider now but at the time it did seem incredibly exciting and, dare i say it... glamorous. Something there certainly wasn't much of in the anarcho scene back then.  Andy was also  producing a fanzine called Scum, which championed the emerging 'Power Electronics' scene: acts like Whitehouse, Consumer Electronics and Ramleh.  This was what a lot of the disillusioned, original anarcho-punks were getting into, and was probably the most exciting scene happening musically. During my time with The Apostles, I used to bunk the overnight train from Scotland down to London on Fridays and as I was still a kid, I’d find a likely looking couple on the train and hide under the table where they were sitting or spend the night in the toilets. If a guard came along I'd tell them I was feeling sick and my parents were further down train with my ticket. Once I got down to London we would usually have a day in a rehearsal studio to practice the songs then we went into the studio the next day. The first release I recorded with them was The Rising From The Ashes EP where I read out the names of the Red Army Faction and Angry Brigades members name-checked at the end of the song The Stoke Newington Eight.

8. What is your favorite Apostles release and why? Likewise, your least favorite? Again, please give reasons.

CL: My favorite Apostles material, which I still think are absolutely unique and incredible recordings, are the early demo tapes. In particular 2nd Dark Age and Topics For Discussion, which in retrospect are closer to experimental music than punk and are characterized by a very depressing, droney, and druggy sound.  The original studio recording of the first single “Blow It Up, Burn It Down, Kick It Til It Breaks” is also stunning; in my opinion, the only time any Apostles recording ever did justice to their sound. Unfortunately, due to the pressing of the vinyl -  together with Andy's bewildering compulsion to ruin anything that sounded well recorded and played - sounds atrocious. “The Creature” on the third EP is another great track, very claustrophobic and psychotic sounding and of course “Mob Violence” on the 5th EP is a classic. I never followed their work after I left so can't really comment on any of the albums or later recordings. Sadly, I think Stewart Home was right in that Cranked Up Really High book when he wrote “While the anarcho-punk groups weren't really playing punk rock at all, because notions of ideological coherence came to dominate their thinking, The Apostles were locked into a rigid punk rock groove where a desire to explore contradictory impulses resulted in stasis if not actual paralysis”. A great shame really, because I do think The Apostles were undoubtedly the most challenging out of all the bands who emerged from that scene. In fact, The Apostles were probably the only band other than Crass who actually provoked thought and debate within the entire punk movement.

9. How did playing in Oi Polloi compare to being an Apostle?

Deek's parents were friends with my parents, and we'd known each other since we were really young. Whenever Oi Polloi were without a drummer and had a record or gigs coming up I'd help out. The first record I recorded with them was the Unite And Win album, which I was credited on as Skullheid! That was a tongue-in-cheek joke as in reality I had my hair down to my arse and was running Acid House clubs; about as far removed from being a skinhead as you could get! I also drummed on the “Punk Aid” single and a few other studio tracks. I played on their first European tour which was a brilliant laugh and a highly 'memorable' time. I suppose the main difference was that Oi Polloi were a punk band with a capital ‘P’, which The Apostles certainly were not. Also, Oi Polloi played gigs which The Apostles didn't apart from weird one off “musique concrete” type events where they'd play amplified  tapes of  printing presses and stuff with feedback and tape cut-ups over the top. So, there was a much more “social” aspect to Oi Polloi which I enjoyed, particularly on tour.

10. I understand you got into DJing and club prompting within the Rave/Techno scene in the late 1980s. Would you say there was a connection within the punk and electronic music techno scene and how "natural" was the transition from one to the other? 

CL: I think similarly to a lot of people who had been involved with the anarcho scene since it first emerged. By 1984, it seemed like the anarcho scene had lost a lot of the aspects which made it initially so engaging and appealing. The early days were characterized by a wide diversity of  musical approaches and then had developed into something quite generic. One can almost trace this decline through the styles displayed on the three Bullshit Detector albums where the contributions become less experimental and adventurous and more 'punk by numbers'. The fact that there are many now who deride these records as "unlistenable" only illustrates to me how the entire point and purpose of anarcho-punk was evidently lost on a lot of people. Also, things did seem to become rather dogmatic. Not in the way right-wing wankers bang on about when they talk shite about the "punk police”, but a rather sanctimonious ‘more DIY than thou' attitude that seemed to be very insular and self-regarding and was more about people's credibility within the scene than the communication of ideas outside it. As I said before, even by the time I joined The Apostles, I was moving on from punk music (though of course continued to follow the more interesting acts) and getting more into electronic music, whether experimental or New York electro and  hip hop which led me into Chicago house and Detroit techno when that started to emerge. I spent the best part of the 1990s running 'rave' clubs and DJing over the world, playing at clubs from America to Japan. I think there are actually a lot of misunderstandings regarding the 'connection' between punk and the techno music scene. While there undoubtedly were a lot of people involved who came from the punk scene, it's a completely false narrative that portrays it as having any overtly political dimension. In ten years of DJing and club running,  I think I only ever went to one 'free party' type rave, which I found very elitist in a rather hippyish way. It really wasn't the sort of music or people I felt anything in common with. The revisionist historicism of rave culture now reads that everyone was embracing New Age type ideas and dancing to sound systems in squats and fields. The reality is they were mostly people who'd be working 9-5 during the week, then enjoying the release from the monotony of their working week by dropping a couple of ecstasy tabs and dancing for hours in existing clubs and music venues. What I would personally contend made this "revolutionary”, and perhaps impossible to view through an orthodox sociological lens, was precisely that it WAS an unpoliticized hedonism. This allowed people to, perhaps for the first time ever, to realize there wasn't anything intrinsically wrong in enjoying themselves without a care for what conservative society might think. As a result, this broke down existing barriers and prejudice in terms of sexism, racism, and homophobia. As Emma Goldman said in the 1860s: "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution”, and what can be more revolutionary than that? 

11 Are you still in touch with anyone from any of the bands you played with?

CL: I am happy to say that I am still in touch with members of all the bands I have been in, to varying degrees. There are hundreds of others from my anarcho-punk past who I've had the immense pleasure in regaining contact with via social media. It's great to find out what some amazing and inspirational people I was corresponding with, in some cases forty or so years ago, are doing now, and I am pleased to say most are doing pretty well and are still every bit as genuine, nonconformist and critical of the injustices of society and the capitalist system now as they were then.